Optimized Ecommerce EP 014 – [CRO Strategy] Hierarchy of Conversions With Haley Morgan Spindler
In today’s episode of The Optimized Ecommerce Podcast, Haley Morgan Spindler joins Tanner as they discuss the importance of the hierarchy of conversions. Listen as Tanner and Haley let you in on a little secret on how to get your customers voluntarily fill-out those follow up surveys after their purchase. Don’t miss today’s
Welcome to Episode #14 of Optimized Ecommerce – [CRO Strategy] Hierarchy of Conversions. I’m your host for today, Tanner Larsson CEO of BGS with my featured guest Haley Morgan Spindler.
BGS means Build Grow Scale! It is a community that we founded where eCommerce entrepreneurs and physical product sellers come to learn how to take their businesses to the next level.
In today’s episode, Haley Morgan Spindler, a revenue optimization expert at BGS introduces us to the hierarchy of conversions. It is your step-by-step guide on how to optimize your e-commerce store by having your customers stay, explore, and purchase from your store.
The beauty of following Haley’s pointers is that you get a repeat purchase from your customers. Now, who wouldn’t want that?
Here’s just a taste of what we talked about today:
Know your Hierarchy
Most people jump on to PERSUASION, which is the 5th in the hierarchy without considering the first four that came before it. Skipping the first four will eventually invalidate all the work you put into marketing your e-commerce store because of your site functionality; accessibility; usability, or intuitiveness is poor. Hence, why it is called a hierarchy.
Front and Back End Developers, What’s the Difference?
While it is not uncommon to see developers who can run both the front and back end, we found that they’re usually outstanding at performing just one end, but seldom both. So, if you want to see changes in your website’s appearance, you need to reach out to a front end developer. However, if you fancy performance changes or diagnostics on the function of the site, which includes programming like JAVA or PHP, you might want to consider a back end developer.
Revenue Optimization like Science
It is all about gathering pertinent information or data so we could make our hypothesis that we can test through experimentation. Only then we could draw our conclusion. These steps, coupled with a few more, will guarantee results.
We also discussed a few other fun topics, including:
- We mentioned an all-in-one conversion optimization suite that we use at BGS for our store that works well.
- The importance of site speed, which falls on usability.
- Gift Cards are game-changers when you are not getting the response rate that you were hoping to receive.
But you’ll have to watch or listen to the episode to hear about those!
How To Stay Connected With Haley Morgan Spindler
Want to stay connected with Haley? Please check out her social profiles below.
- Website: BuildGrowScale.com
- Facebook: Facebook.com/buildgrowscale
- Twitter: @BuildGrowScale
- YouTube Channel: Youtube.com/windowsuccess
Also, Tanner and Haley mentioned these items on the show. You can find that on:
Tanner Larsson 0:04
Hey everybody, welcome back to the Optimized E-commerce Podcast. I’m Tanner Larsson from Build Grow Scale, I’ll be your host of this session. And I have a really cool guest with me from part of the Build Grow Scale team, she will be talking about the hierarchy of conversions, which nobody really knows what that means, except for her, but she’s gonna break it down in a way that’s gonna make you kind of go huh and then you’re gonna go, Wow, and then you’re gonna go man, I need to be doing this stuff on my store. There’s actually a very, very clear cut path of how conversions happen and at what level they’re affected and what different things affect each level of conversion into what ultimately results in a sale. Okay, so, Hayley Morgan Spindler, she has to have all three names just to make her sound important because she, like me, happens to be quite short. So we use bigger names to sound and be taller. Right. So Haley how are you?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 0:56
Good, how are you?
Tanner Larsson 0:57
Doing great. So Haley, why don’t – before we jump into the meat of the content and everything. Why don’t you kind of give us a little background on you. You could talk about how you hate animals. And then also tell us what you do at BGS.
Hayley Morgan Spindler 1:09
Yeah, so Tanner got that, right. I absolutely love animals. But yeah, I got started BGS I think almost two and a half, three years ago. And I was, you know, doing my own thing, business, all that. And I came on as a revenue optimization expert, and have been doing that for about three years. And so two and a half, no, two years ago, we started the internship training program, and I’ve been kind of the head of that since then.
Tanner Larsson 1:41
Explain that a little bit. What is the intern program for BGS?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 1:44
Yes, so the internship training program is what we sort of developed to get qualified and long term revenue optimizers with BGS. There’s just really no education out there for revenue optimization. So we devised our own. And that’s how we kind of get all of our rows now. So.
Tanner Larsson 2:07
So what she’s not telling you in her little brief introduction, and I’m gonna brag on her a little bit. She also is, I think probably the third … that we hired. It was I think, Alex, James, and then you right?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 2:20
I believe so. Yeah.
Tanner Larsson 2:21
And then Casey after that. So she’s, not only is she one of the youngest, but she was the youngest until we had Dom. And Dom is I think 11 now. No, he’s like 19, or 20. But anyway, Haley was the youngest, but the way we met Haley was she actually joined our Black Label mastermind. And she had built a store that basically did over a couple million dollars in what four months, and did really, really well built a really successful brand out of it that due to a whole bunch of other unfortunate circumstances didn’t get to last the way she had hoped it had but really showed us her talent and really just kind of wowed us. So when the opportunity came when we started building out the Build Grow Scale team, Haley was a, you know, first choice and then to top it off a little while later, we decided to fire her. Haley we can’t work together anymore. And then it was the biggest mistake we ever made. So we begged her back, she graciously came back. And we found the right role for her in the company. And now I think once you figure out 30 plus percent of the people who work for us.
Hayley Morgan Spindler 3:30
Yeah, yes. 32%. After marriage and some other people it’s probably like 30% but yes, something around …
Tanner Larsson 3:39
So 30-ish percent plus, the revenue optimization experts who work with Build Grow Scale were all trained by Haley and the new batch, we’re getting ready start another round the internship program, we’ve got like 40 or 50 applications, something like that already a crazy amount and she is going to be running a whole new batch of interns through multi-phase internship program where at the end of it. They’ve been trained in revenue optimization and can step right into a job with Build Grow Scale, which is pretty cool. So that’s how awesome Haley is. Now, she’s going to allow you with her information as well. So let’s jump back to it. So today’s topic is the hierarchy of conversion. And that probably doesn’t mean a whole lot to you yet. But once she’s done explaining it, it will. So Haley, what is the hierarchy of conversion?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 4:30
So as simply or as simple as possible it is the roadmap of you know, your step one through five in the order in which you should be optimizing your store. So step one function, and then to step five, which is persuasion. So step one function things like, basically function is just making sure your site your site is as functional as possible. And I apologize for that syntax. But basically just making sure you’re – there’s no broken links. Like the best way that I can kind of explain it is like if you’re moving into a house, you want to make sure the gas is set up properly, and there’s no holes in the drywall. And then to step five, which would be kind of decorating your house now, that’s Step five, which is persuasion. It’s the step that, you know, most people try to jump into first, actually, and it’s the last step. It does produce the highest returns. So it is the more the more attractive of the five steps. But it’s the thing that, you know, give gives users a reason to want to complete a checkout or, you know, whatever it is your goal is to fill out a form or anything of that nature. So things like your coffee or something that’s not as sustainable that that comes to mind easily is like a sale. That would be a persuasive element. Yeah. So it’s basically the five steps that you know, step one, you should start at. Step five, you should, you should end with.
Tanner Larsson 6:10
So when you teach it, I remember the diagram – it’s shaped like a pyramid, right? And so you it’s also kind of like Maslow’s hierarchy of needs because almost in terms of the persuasion is at the top, function is at the bottom, it’s the widest one because you can walk us through them, but the way and why you’re saying just to clarify, persuasion is the most powerful, but it’s also the last part because for it to work at its highest level, and really get the benefit. All the previous levels underneath it need to be taken care of first, right?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 6:44
Yeah, correct. So, um, persuasion, and usability, accessibility, all of the other four just don’t work unless you know, the functionality and then so on and so forth. So –
Tanner Larsson 6:58
Let’s go through them. One by one. Functionality first functionality is, like bugs making it work. When the person clicks something, it goes where they want them to things like that, right?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 7:08
Yeah. So the first step –
Tanner Larsson 7:10
Hayley Morgan Spindler 7:11
No. So the first step is function. And that’s just basically making your site error-free so it functions perfectly. It’s actually the easiest way to, to increase the experience, or to improve the experience of users. So you know, this is like when I first get it, when I first get a client, or first start working with somebody, it is the absolute first thing I do because it produces the quickest and easiest wins. So the best example I can think of is like, let’s say you’re sending traffic to a product page, and your ATC button is not working. It doesn’t matter what kind of persuasive elements you have on that page if they literally cannot Add To Cart. So um, that’s that’s function that basically error-free. You don’t want you don’t want to log on and images aren’t rendering that’s like a complete nightmare. So yeah, that’s that’s definitely –
Tanner Larsson 8:06
That’s function. What’s level two?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 8:08
So level two is accessibility. That’s basically making it so that users can operate your site. Anybody with any background, blinds, I don’t know who else would be coming to, like, for example of one of our partner stores serves a primarily older demographic, a female older demographic, and just by increasing font size, we’ve produced massive wins for that client. So simple things like that: accessibility. There’s actually like, if you just googled accessibility checklist, you can there there are checklists, make sure you’re looking at the most recent version. You don’t want to use an outdated version, obviously, that you can just send to a developer and boom, they can just pick off that list and yeah.
Tanner Larsson 9:01
So does accessibility, does that fall into the the Homer Simpson methodology that I always talk about in terms of – does it need to be able to to navigate and use the site? Or is there another level where that falls into?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 9:13
Well, I mean, yes, in all levels you want to Homer Simpson it down. But usability is typically the one that I say is more in Homer Simpson, which is the third step: usability. Usability is just so first one was making it accessible to people of all backgrounds. Usability and accessibility are easily confused by a lot of people. So when it comes to usability, the differences is that you want to consider the ease of use for people. So how easy is it to use your site so this is why it’s the Homer Simpson step. Our gauge design’s consistent throughout that’s product pages is typically what I think about when I think about you know, consistent in design because you’d be surprised how many people, or how many business owners I see who don’t even have consistent page designs. It’s cognitive load at a complete bare minimum. You don’t want to have like, for example, in the checkout any form fields that are unnecessary. So bigger font sizes.
Tanner Larsson 10:22
Clear navigation, like things, things that – and this I guess …, this would actually come into where the store owner tends to have a store work the way that they think it should versus the way the end user should and that would be more of a usability play, right?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 10:38
Yeah. So when it comes to usability, the thing that I would recommend people to do to ensure that they have, you know, just the easiest to comprehend site in the world, run some user tests. Install something like Lucky Orange a session any session recording software is fine. I don’t get paid to endorse Lucky Orange, but it’s by far the superior software on the market. So something that you can just poke your head in and look around in to make sure that there’s nothing confusing your user. Something like, like, let’s say that somebody was using a form of progressive disclosure on their site. So progressive disclosure for anybody who doesn’t know, would be like if you see those little eye bubbles on a website that’s supposed to denote information. And if you were to click on it or hover over it, like a big paragraph pops up. Progressive disclosure is basically hiding information that users don’t need to see until a certain point behind something like you know, an icon or an accordion or just really –
Tanner Larsson 11:47
Hayley Morgan Spindler 11:48
Something of that nature. So if you are going to use like progressive disclosure, you you might want to, I don’t know like run some user tests or … software to see that it’s actually being you know, understood, because like, for example, chat icons are not really progressive disclosure, but it kind of follows the same methodology of if it’s not, if it doesn’t have a label, people don’t really know what it is. So if all you had was that little eye as an icon, you might want to maybe use a little micro coffee or something that just denotes what it is. So yeah, that’s that’s kind of what I have to say about that one.
Tanner Larsson 12:31
Okay. And the next one.
Hayley Morgan Spindler 12:34
Yes. So then fourth one is intuitive. When it comes to intuitive, I think people misunderstand what I mean when I say intuitive, and that’s intuitive is just presenting people with the information when they need it. So again, that kind of falls back on that progressive disclosure, but it can it can really be for anything. So one example with a client that I’m currently working with was we ran, you know, on site surveys, all bunch of user testing and just time and time and time again, shipping was one of the things that just kept coming up. People were, I guess, kind of burned from dropshippers in the past and all sorts of POD people just not getting product to the customer quick enough that they just weren’t trusting that this client would as well. So what we actually did was put a little form of microcopy under the etc button, well, below the so under our etc. We have those UVP icons, the you know, value proposition value proposition icons, and then under that we put, hey, interested in shipping rates and shipping, pricing and shipping, pricing, shipping, whatever whatever we put there. And when you clicked on that, it didn’t pull them off page you want to keep them on because page. And what it said was, you know, it had like a chart with if you purchased because they have three shipping, they have just free, priority, one day-two day air. And so I had the pricing and then it actually did like kind of what you see Amazon do, which is the you know, if you order on this day expected delivery date is this this day, like this hour this time, whatever. And, and that worked. So yeah, so intuitive is just really giving them the information when they want it. And the easiest way to find out what it is that they want and where they’re wanting it is some qualitative research methods. So whether that’s on site surveys, again, Lucky Orange has has that functionality in its software to just push on there. You could do post purchase survey emails, you could do any number of qualitative research but I would say that some sort of survey or session or … software is going to produce or give you the most insight there.
Tanner Larsson 15:04
It’s also not a matter of putting the wrong information at the wrong time as well. Right. So like people who – the simple example would be the people who put the credit card icons underneath the ATC button.
Hayley Morgan Spindler 15:17
Yeah. And that that one’s demographic related too. So if you’re serving a younger demographic, they really don’t care about that at all. And the younger generation is kind of who’s using the internet these days. I’m not saying that the older demographic doesn’t, but an older demographic might want to see those credit card icons. It’s certainly not a user behavior affecting tests, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend running it, especially when we’re telling you right here that it doesn’t really it’s not really serving your store to put those icons there. So for sure, that’s a great example.
Tanner Larsson 15:54
Okay, so we’ve gone through them and the top is persuasion which we talked about already, which is basically your copy, your persuasive elements, and the way you’re trying to make the sale through your market – “marketing.” Okay, so that’s that’s the pyramid of conversions. Now, why is it – why do I even have to do them all? Why can’t I just jump around? Or why is it important to follow this hierarchy of conversions?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 16:21
Yeah. So the two that have the biggest difference between them is, you know, functional and persuasion. So those are the two I keep going back to. If I were to just jump into persuasion and ignore the four before it, especially like functionality. It doesn’t matter how persuasive I’m being, it doesn’t matter what sales, what promotions, how – I could have hired the best copywriter in the world. I could have worked with Brett, it doesn’t matter if they can’t add to cart, view product images, links are broken. Like like, let’s say you have a Facebook app, and it’s running supposed to be running traffic to a certain product page, and I click that link off of the Facebook ad. And I get taken to a 404 error page. You want to make sure there’s there’s no errors whatsoever. And I mean, that happens to people all the time. I’ve come across it when I’m just you know, getting targeted to somebody, Oh, that looks great. Oh, sorry, product page 404. Whoops, like, come on. So, definitely functionality. That’s, that’s why you want in terms of like looking at it that way you want to start at number one, go to number five. And again, like if I go into accessibility next, if I am a, if I’m serving an older demographic, and I the font size is too small, I can’t see it, doesn’t matter you know how many pairs of reading glasses I put on, I cannot read what’s on your sites, then. I’m not going to take the time that you know to blow up the site, make it bigger on my end. If I’m an older demographic, what are the chances I even know how to do that in the first place?
Tanner Larsson 18:03
Hayley Morgan Spindler 18:05
Next, if we go to usability, if it’s not easy to use the site, think about it from your own perspective. How often have you gone to sites that are just too difficult to figure out, too difficult to navigate? You can’t find what you’re looking for. So you bounce. Why would your user do that any differently? Fourth intuition if they are intuitive, I should say, if you’re not, what are the words I’m looking for here, if you’re not producing the right information, you’re leaving things out. You’re putting things in there that they don’t need. Maybe you’re putting something there that produces another worry in their mind. Like you say, hey, we’ll never gypped you on product. Now. They’re like, Oh my god, they might gyp me on product. You could be doing any number of things incorrectly there. So again, it wouldn’t matter what persuasive elements you put on your site. If, you know, you’re either leaving something out or putting something worse there in its place. So yeah, that’s – in a long way that’s why it’s important to start at number one, and end up at number five.
Tanner Larsson 19:12
Gotcha. So for like, the rest of us who aren’t you and aren’t like incredibly smart at all this stuff? How can me and the rest of our listeners who don’t understand it, how can we best use this in our stores without having to become a revenue optimization expert, or, you know, go through your internship program.
Hayley Morgan Spindler 19:34
So when I think of revenue optimization, I basically think of it as a science. So we have data, we use it to form a hypothesis, we perform an experiment or a test, and then we draw our conclusions from there. So anybody really can be in a row if you just follow the scientific method. Whether or not you’re successful at it, though, depends on a few things. So I don’t expect everybody to know all that and do all that, and that’s a really great point. So when it comes to things like this functionality, accessibility those two, I mean, you could go on Upwork and find, find anybody to do those, to run through your site. I mean, we have bug checkers on our team at BGS. We hired people whose sole job it is, is to run through sites and make sure they’re error-free.
Tanner Larsson 20:23
Can they go through them over and over again?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 20:25
Yeah, multiple times. I mean, they’ve gone through the client that I work with right now. They’ve come through their site this week alone three times. So whenever we’re pushing a new theme, things of that nature, we have bug checkers, so you don’t need to be great at that. There are people out there who are doing it, you know, four or five, it sounds terrible, 4 or 5 dollars an hour. And that goes for accessibility, too. Like I said, you could just google accessibility checklist and send it to developer. I would I would suggest though, we learned our lesson here. Have a front end and the back end developer. If you have somebody who’s a wiz at all of it great, but definitely don’t send front end code issues to a back end developer.
Tanner Larsson 21:13
Do you have a little explanation on what the 2 – the difference is?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 21:17
Tanner Larsson 22:14
And the reason for that is, we found is that they’re usually good at one or the other, they’re not so great at both. And you wind up with a subpar implementation, when you have someone who’s trying to a back end developer trying to do front end. And that’s usually what you find you it’s either they’re really good at graphic side of it, and the design, or they’re really good at the back end PHP type programming. So separating those two has been a lifesaver at BGS in terms of site development function, making things work and actually following that pyramid that Haley just outlined,
Hayley Morgan Spindler 22:49
Site speed two, that’s another one that suffered a lot. And so then for the third step, which is usability or usable this one you kind of want to be testing for. But I understand that not everybody has the luxury of traffic or the luxury of being an expert in testing statistics. So when it comes to usability, and you know, you don’t have those luxuries, then I would definitely suggest a session recording software. They can be pricey, but there’s options on the market that aren’t as pricey. So basically, what a session recording software does is, anytime anybody lands on your site and starts a session, it records whatever you tell that software to record. So for example, with my clients, they have so much traffic that we only record right now product pages, and that saves us views. But if you have not so much traffic, you could you could literally record from start to end. So I would definitely recommend any session recording software. You could even use user testing. So user testing –
Tanner Larsson 24:02
Back up real quick Haley before we go into user testing. What do you see when you when you in a session recording? What what are we seeing?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 24:10
Yeah, so I’m actually watching the person or the user, their entire interaction with my site. So when I when I pull up, for example, I use Lucky Orange, or BGS uses Lucky Orange whenever I’m watching a session recording, I click play. And I watch them the moment they land on my site, to the moment they’re done. So I’m watching them, you know, like if I were to send traffic to product pages, and the first interaction was at the product page, I would see from product page to checkout or I would see from product page to wherever they bounced.
Tanner Larsson 24:42
And everything right, like you see their mouse movement, you see their clicks, all that stuff, right?
Hayley Morgan Spindler 24:47
It’s all in there. You wouldn’t necessarily – well on desktop, you would see the mouse moving. We have -there’s even something called Heatmaps that lucky that Lucky Orange does as well, so I can see where the mouse was moving. When I pull up that map where they were they were clicking, scroll depth. So Lucky Orange does a lot of stuff, not just not just the recording. Well, I should say, especially recording softwares do a lot of things not just Lucky Orange.
Tanner Larsson 25:15
From there, you were to going into user testing.
Hayley Morgan Spindler 25:17
Yeah. So another another option, though, you know, a session recording software is for you is a user test. So, again, there are some software’s out there that just do it for you. The downside to those though, they the users who who sign up for, for these user testing platforms are kind of seasoned, so they know how to use websites, they know how to do things. So when you’re when you come up with a list of things and you say, hey, do this, and then they walk through that test, they do everything on the list. It tends to be with ease because these are these are seasoned professionals when it when it comes to using the internet. So something that Casey actually started doing was recruiting people through all sorts of …, you know, but like your Facebook groups and what’s that Craigslist started, he started recruiting people that way and then just saying, hey, record your screen as you go through it on your phone or on your computer, whatever it is that you’re using, just record it, he would send them that way. And so he’s getting, for example, if he had, hypothetically a dog site, he would go to dog groups. And he would, he would go to dog groups and say, Hey, you know, I’m giving people X amount of dollars to complete this. So it’s in his group, or target group and his age demographic, he’d makes sure, knowing Casey he would probably take it a step further to make sure it’s, you know, whatever, gendered audience. So, you recruit people that way and get a more authentic user. And then that’s even a little more cost effective. If you pay $10 ahead, people are sure I’ll do it for $10, no problem. I don’t know what some of the other software’s are charging, but I try my UI, which is an amazing platform. It’s a little pricier. So there’s more cost effective solutions out there to get these answers to your usability problems. And then for intuitive too, the same thing for intuitive, user testing session recordings, those will give you all the answers you need. And even like I said, though, where we got something back was from on site surveys, which we got from the Lucky Orange platform, and then post purchase email surveys, which we just we use something called Wufoo. And we link that up to Klaviyo. And it just sends out all of our emails and it’s, it’s an amazing platform.
Tanner Larsson 27:45
And one of the things we do to increase the take rate on those posts, follow up surveys. So post purchasing, after they purchase we send them a survey saying hey, answer these questions. Why did you almost not buy, what – you know different things like that. To incentivize them, we usually give them a gift card back to the store. And you can use the gift card to Amazon or anything else you want. But the cool thing about giving them a gift card, to your own store, if you have other products, they’re probably going to go back. And typically, gift card purchasers spend more than they would normally spend with the gift card because they feel like they’ve got like free money, and they get a better value and they add a little bit to it. So that’s a great way to get incentivize and higher levels of responses at the same time training repeat buyers through a survey function.
Hayley Morgan Spindler 28:35
Yeah, that’s a great point. Because when I with a client that I used to work with the … works with now. I used to, in 24 hours, I had over 300 responses. I mean, I was like, I went to check it the next day. I was like, Oh, that’s a lot of data to process. I actually pulled in Irene to help me with it, but it was like a $15 gift card. So we actually implemented that same sort of methodology on to our on site surveys on site polls. So when we use Lucky Orange on main header tag, and then like a sub tag underneath it, we made that main one, you know, blah, blah, blah discount, blah, blah, blah, get your discount. And then the second headline underneath it was the question followed by, you know, whatever sort of response, you can leave it open ended, or you can give them like a. So normally like on an on-site survey, even with the client that I do work with, who does millions and millions of dollars every, every month, I think it’s only halfway through the month and they’ve already passed what they did last month, we would get like eight or 10 responses. People just don’t want to respond to them. But when I said, Hey, take this percent off, there were hundreds of responses and again, 24 hours I was completely baffled, but also not surprised. So definitely if you’re not getting the response rate that you hope had hoped to, I would, I would suggest giving that a shot.
Tanner Larsson 29:58
Well guys, there you have it, hierarchy of conversions and how important it is to follow all five levels to really get the best bang for your buck and most performance out of your store. Again, as Haley said, almost everybody wants to start with persuasion and ignore everything else not maybe because they want to ignore it, maybe just didn’t even think about it. But now that you’ve got the tools, and at least the understanding that there are those five levels, you can start plugging away, and, you know, going through them one by one. So right now guys, what I need you to do is if you enjoyed this episode, please leave a comment or a review below and also subscribe. We’re available on YouTube and on iTunes and Stitcher and all those different places. But the easiest way to get your links is to go to https://buildgrowscale.com/podcast/ get everything you need right there including all the show notes. So head over there right now and do that and we will see you on the next episode. Thanks, Haley.
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