Optimized Ecommerce EP 041 – Reasons Why You Should Avoid Micromanaging Your Team & Start Leading
Today on The Optimized Ecommerce Podcast, Rosemary Kwoka joins Tanner Larsson to dive into detail the top reasons why you shouldn’t micromanage your team but instead start leading them. Dive in today’s episode and know the reasons why micromanaging stifles one’s creativity, and also learn some of the recommended ways on how can lead
Welcome to Episode #041 of Optimized Ecommerce – Reasons Why You Should Avoid Micromanaging Your Team & Start Leading. I’m your host, Tanner Larsson, CEO of BGS.
BGS means Build Grow Scale! It is a community that we founded where eCommerce entrepreneurs and physical product sellers come to learn how to take their businesses to the next level.
Rosemary Kwoka is one of the BGS Revenue Optimization Expert, she joined the BGS internship program with Haley while on her journey to play Australian rules football in Australia. She optimizes our client’s site page by page and analyzes user behavior within the site.
Rosemary also creates content for future projects and has been a part of the EI revamp team with Jeremy and Tanner.
Here’s just a taste of what we talked about today:
Rosemary Shares her experience in managing teams online.
Rosemary not only deals with herself but also with other RO’s, she has a front end developer, a back end developer, a GA expert, and bug checkers. We call them pods it’s like a team of people within that pod that Rosemary has to manage and work with, in order to have the results produced on the store. One of the things that Rosemary is good at is managing all these teams and working with these people including the clients. She is the buffer between the client and everything else.
Aside from that Rosemary also manages a USA team, United States Australian Football, she is the USA team captain. Within that, there are teams and a lot of elements that translate as far as being just a part of the team and being an inspiration. That’s where Rosemary wanted to start leadership within a team and the difference between a boss and a leader, one can be a boss and not be a leader.
Then we discussed what micromanaging is and where it comes from.
A micromanager is someone who feels the need to be in control of every step of the process in order to hit that goal. That includes all the small details like, when they take their breaks, how long they’re taking to do the assigned task, the small steps that people do to accomplish the target goal. Micromanaging is also the absence of the bigger picture at the moment because the small detail matters and if it’s not perfect, the goal can’t be obtained.
Micromanaging comes from extreme passion and fear of not getting to a certain goal. An extreme passion comes with so much power. Both power and passion are two great things to have and one can have way too much of it. Another basis of micromanagement is the fear of losing power, and also the fear of not achieving a certain goal which also translates to mistrust.
We also discussed a few other fun topics, including:
- How does Rosemary lead both team USA and the BGS team, given the fact that most people she handles have a type-A personality?
- What leadership style does Rosemary use?
- Rosemary’s experience in helping her teams work through the varying types of high detail and low detail tasks.
But you’ll have to watch or listen to the episode to hear about those!
How To Stay Connected With Rosemary Kwoka
Want to stay connected with Rosemary? Please check out their social profiles below.
- Website: BuildGrowScale.com
- Facebook Profile: Facebook.com/rosie.kloh
- Instagram Handle: Instagram.com/octaoctagon
Also, Rosemary mentioned the following on the show. You can find that on:
Tanner Larsson 0:07
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Optimized Ecommerce Podcast. I’m Tanner Larsson. And today, we are going to talk about something that’s not specifically ecom related. But it’s one of the big problem areas that we see a lot of people do and deal with when they are building their online business or any business in general. And that is micromanaging your teams. And how do you get your team to work well, how do you manage them? How do you not step on their toes? How do you not basically screw that up? Alright. And I can speak from experience and that I’m very good at screwing that up. You know, BGS has had a kind of meteoric growth over the past few years, especially this past year. In the last 18 months, we went from about 12 people, which I was very comfortable 12 to 65 people, okay, massive growth and like systems that work at 12. And leadership styles in teams and things like that, work great 12 do not work the same, that 60, 63, 65 type things. Okay. So, today, I’m joined by Rosemary Kwoka, who is she’ll tell you, she’s the first of many BGS. But, you know, she’s actually, through marriage now, because she got married is related to another one of our RO’s, and just a total badass, but she’s really awesome at not only revenue optimization, but she’s got a kind of a unique style of managing the teams that she works on interacting with the teams, even if she’s not the lead, and then also how to managing me. Like, works a lot of projects where Rosemary has to deal with me. And it takes a unique style, it’s kind of like there’s a there’s a word for it. It’s like Tanner wrangling, and she’s pretty good at it. And you know, we’re gonna have her kind of go through and share her expertise on, how do you lead a team, not micromanage a team, and then what happens when you do micromanage them? And how does performance suffer? And how can you fix those kinds of things. So before we really dive into that, Rosemary, just wanted to say thank you for being here and bring you on. Why don’t you tell everybody a little bit about yourself and how you came to work with BGS. And what to do?
Rosemary Kwoka 2:09
Yes. Hi, Tanner. It’s so good to be here. Thank you so much for inviting me to be a part of this podcast. I’m really excited about it. Yeah, so how I got a part of BGS kind of hit on the head with Eric Kwoka. He is my husband’s cousin. And had mentioned he actually was back from BGS live because he lived in Korea at that time. And I had sushi with him and I was working in the United. But how are you working with a company in the United States, we live in Korea, you know, and know what’s going on here. And I was working as a customer service, I guess we’ve called it part of the I ran the customer service department for a company. And I did a lot of analysis on their customer service as well as other things. And I got into BGS in the internship program with Hailey. And I was also on my journey to play Australian rules football in Australia, or semi-professional football. And yeah, that’s how that’s how I got into it was first through Eric, and then my skills and ecommerce, customer service analysis. Got me in the door. And that’s where I am now.
Tanner Larsson 3:28
Awesome. So talk a little bit about what you do from an from like an RO standpoint and kind of some of the projects you’re working on and things like that.
Rosemary Kwoka 3:36
Yeah. So as a revenue optimization expert, with BGS. I write to sites, and we essentially optimize page, page by page. And, you know, just do the standard revenue optimization. I’m sure we’ve talked about a lot here on this podcast, but I’ll do I think I really emphasize on user behavior, kind of copy, and user interaction within the site. I really enjoy user testing and listening to people use the website, hearing the words that they use, and then we incorporate those through, incorporate their wording. When we optimize whatever page we’re testing, that’s, I guess that would be my favorite part of optimization is watching people use the site. I also do content creation, for our future projects. And I’m also a part of the I call it the EI revamp team. I’m really proud to be a part of that working with Jeremy and Tanner. Wrangling Tanner as he says it. Yeah, so those are the projects that I’m in might also take a Google Analytics course with Pon during the week, which is something that I’m really grateful for. And yeah, it’s it’s you guys keep me busy and I’m grateful for that. That’s for sure.
Tanner Larsson 5:14
So guys, I got a couple more points on what Rosemary just said that kind of ties of open loops that if you’re if you’re new to the podcast, so she’s had she’s doing a Google Google Analytics training with Pon. Pon is our head GA engineer, Google Analytics engineer and just probably one of the smartest guys on the planet, when it comes to Google Analytics and Tag Manager. He’s just a wizard. And he runs that whole side of things. But he’s also started doing kind of a training program for our RO’s, to give them additional levels of GA training beyond what they already get as part of an internship program and as our normal training. So we’ve got a lot of, we’re really big on internally training our team, and, you know, continuing to level them up. So they just become, you know, even better rockstars than they already are. And then, with the EI revamp team, what we’re talking about there is ecom insider is our kind of our main business accelerator program, where we teach what we do on this on our partner brands, we teach all the RO principles and how we do all this massive growth on stores, to our ecom insider members. And right now we’re in the process, we’ve done some auditing of the of the program, we’d have some new ideas and things we want to change. And we’re going through and we’re revamping the program to update it with all the newest stuff, and the best training that we are now currently doing. And we’re really excited about doing that. But it’s a massive undertaking. And there’s a quite a team involved, like, I’m involved, Rosemary is involved, Jeremy, Brad, and probably five or six other people that are on a regular basis, not considering the people that will pull in for specialty things periodically. So there’s probably going to be around 20 plus people involved in this one EI revamp project at varying times. And if you’ve ever, you know worked with people, it’s very tough. Sometimes it’s like herding cats to kind of get everything to work together and not upset one person won’t get any other piece going and all of that. And in this EI revamp project, along with some she’s also helped with other projects. And on her RO team, she has to deal with not only herself but other RO’s coming in and out, she has a front end developer, a back end developer, a GA expert, bug checkers, you know, and there’s a whole pod of we call them pods, but like a team of people that within that pod that she has to manage, and work to, in order to have the results produced on the store. And this is on an on a constant basis. So one of the things that Rosemary is very good at is managing all this and working with these people and also the client, because she’s the buffer between the client and everything else. So there’s a whole lot of stuff that goes into making this work. And Rosemary is one of the best at it. So we’re going to kind of dive into some basically talking about how does she do this? How does she break it down? And specifically, we’ll talk about micromanaging as well, because that’s very much a double edged sword, it can be thought of as good it can, it can also be really, really bad. So we’re going to kind of kind of jump into it. All right. So Rosemary, first question, right. I think I actually might have answered your question for you. But what, what is your experience in managing teams online? kind of take it from whatever I said and add to it?
Rosemary Kwoka 8:20
Yeah. So in addition to, you know, having those obvious big picture teams like the EI revamp, you know, and managing those two sites, you’re right, there are other teams within those teams that we manage. So like you said, developers, clients are big one other RO’s that help you within the site’s passing on information back and forth, all for one big purpose, which is to optimize the store and increase that conversion. So yeah, I we hit all those points as to what I managed within e commerce. And then I also manage a USA team, United States Australian Football, I am USA team captain. And within that there are teams there’s you know, there’s a lot of elements with like physical fitness, nutrition, practice, skills, coordinating schedules, team bonding, there’s a lot of elements that translate everything as far as just being a part of the team and being an inspiration and, and that’s kind of where I wanted to start with leadership within a team and the difference between managing and being a leader. And you know, being a boss and being a leader, you know, you can be a boss and not be a leader. And that’s been proven in so many, you know, so many companies, you know, you see a boss and then you see everyone else and the most productive teams that I’ve been a part of is when everyone is a part of the team. And there isn’t really a distinct like a distinct difference between a leader and the people that you’re leading. It’s It’s very, it’s pretty much everyone’s holding hands
Tanner Larsson 10:12
with that. Absolutely. And I think I think you actually really described One of the unique features of like, the Bill Grow Scale culture is that with it, like, yeah, there may be someone whose point or running point on this particular project or whatever, but that same person who’s in the lead, really has the same roles, responsibilities, and everything else, maybe just a few extra than everybody else. And it’s just a very big family style environment. Everybody pulls their own weight and pushes everybody else to excel.
Rosemary Kwoka 10:41
Yeah, yeah, it’s in the sense of like, the way that I visualize it, it’s like, you have a group of people, and then you have your flag as to what you stand for. And as you’re leading this group, there’s that one person holding that flag forward. But we always think the leader is the person holding that flag. But that’s not true. Everyone takes turns holding that flag going forward. And the leader is that person guiding that and pushing that group forward. And everyone has a different part that leads a specific thing. So I am a leader within BGS, that is also being led by other leaders in BGS. And that’s what’s so beautiful about this company is, you know, we all call it like a family feeling company. But it’s, it’s also it’s very professional, and it’s very open. And there’s a lot of trust within it. And I think, for me, is the distinguishing point between you know, not micromanaging. And being a great manager and that trust is what starts with that.
Tanner Larsson 11:49
Absolutely. And that’s actually a good segue, because, you know, speaking about micromanaging, that’s something that we work very hard on, like Matt and I and Zack and everything else, and from the trickle down type thing is not micromanaging. And in my case, before we get into your you I’ll let you explain it and why like, in my case, micromanaging, I tend to have because I know how to do something, I don’t see it being done quickly, or quite the way I need it or whatever. It’s my normal reaction, I don’t I fight that reaction, but my reaction is to just go in there step in and say, Hey, let me just take care of it, I’ll get it done. Or, you know, or if I don’t just take that’s taking the store back, that’s taking the responsibility away from the person taking the trust away, which is not good, obviously. But the other side of that is, okay, well, they’re not doing equipment away. So instead, I’m just gonna be over their shoulder making sure every single step of the way, they’re doing it my way. Now, we’ve learned very, very effectively over with as the teams grown that just because Tanner knows how to do it one way doesn’t necessarily mean that the 60 smarter people on the team than him don’t have a better way to do it. Right. So that’s a big part of how do you not get into the process of micromanaging? But before we kind of catching up before, but now why don’t we jump into what micromanaging is? You know, let’s start there. And then where do you feel it comes from? I kind of talked a little bit about that. But once you go deeper,
Rosemary Kwoka 13:13
Yeah. So everyone has their own type of version of micromanagement. But I feel like this definition will hit everyone’s feelings as to what micromanagement is. And I do want to preface this as there is a time and a place for micromanagement, and we can get into that later. But for me, a micromanager is someone who feels the need to be in control of every step of the process in order to hit that target in order to hit that goal. That includes all the small details like, you know, when they take their breaks, how long they’re taking to do something, you know, the small itty bitty steps that people get to accomplishing one step to obtain the target, or the goal, whatever, whatever you want to call it. Some some micro managers have a hard time delegating work. It’s a similar quality or similar thing that you kind of said tethered, where you’re like, Well, I know that I can do this, and I know that I can do it the best. So you know, you don’t have that trust that someone else can do it. And you don’t trust that someone else’s way. It can also be a good way. So you know, every another part of micromanaging is the absence of the bigger picture in the moment. So for a micromanager, every little detail really matters to them every single bit if not perfect, we can’t get to our goal. If this is not the way that it is. There’s no way we could possibly get to where I want to be and something that I have experienced that I laugh at it. Because, you know, we’ve all been a part of this is that a micromanager wants to be involved in every step. That means if there is an email that you need to ask, you know, someone say you need to ask your client a question, that manager wants to be in that email just to make sure that you’re saying it correctly. micromanager just needs to know absolutely everything about every single detail that any of their employees or teammates have done. Now, I’m going to go back and clarify that there’s a time and a place and, and, you know, I would say it would be really important if you were like a rocket engineer. And there were so many details that you needed to be a part of, and you needed to make sure for the safety of humanity that his rocket follows all the management also include, you know, there are some details that are needed. And so maybe that’s a bit extreme, but I can understand micromanaging in a safety highly detailed workplace. But in general, and what we are what we’re used to, it’s, it’s, you’re gonna it’s a give and take, there are some moments where you, you know, you, maybe minor details are important, but not for the whole grand scheme of thing. And you can’t use micromanagement as your primary source of leadership. And I would argue that it’s not really leadership. Because to me, leadership, is inspiring people to get to the to get to the goal. And, you know, basically convincing people or making the team’s not the best word, but giving everyone this clear intent, that what we’re doing is great, and everyone’s input is so important. It’s just so important. And everyone feels that way. Because if if you don’t have everyone on board, and if someone’s like, Well, my opinion doesn’t matter. It’s like, Well, no, it does matter. And what you have to say, is super important to all of us. Because that person who’s quiet in the back, who might not say anything, you know, what they have to say, is actually pretty good, because they just might not feel they have a stand to say it and micromanagers suppress those feelings. They repress those feelings, they they, you know, if you’re not going to speak up, and if you do, they probably don’t care about what you have to say. And, and I want to finish on this, but with this section is 10 and do you do such a good job at making your intent and purpose so clear. And I think that is such a huge thing for us at BGS is that you lead us by saying this is my vision, this is what I want, and you give us the opportunity to get there, and we get to check in with you and show you what those things are. And that is like, such a huge thing for a leader is just to be clear as to what what needs to get done and opening up that trust. So I know there’s maybe past 10 or like you said that was like What is happening? No, I can do this. They can really take it. Yes totally. But you know, that’s, as you said, we learn we grow and we create an empire like BGS is.
Tanner Larsson 18:27
Absolutely. That was great. A couple pieces on that I wanted to just add to is you know, there’s the key points that she talked about. I want to just emphasize from a like if you are a micromanager or you don’t you may not even know you are one yet especially when you don’t have a team and you’re starting to hire you usually don’t find out you’re a micromanager until you have people working for you or working with you. But also it doesn’t it’s not always the leader who’s a micromanager, you may have somebody on your team who takes it who’s like Rosemary is the leader, but Joe Bob, Billy Bob, whatever decides that he wants to like he’s got this OCD complex or he just has to be involved in everything and he can disrupt the thing. But the point that I was actually going towards before I rambled on that was that the micromanagement, myth style actually stifles creativity, production and performance. So if those three things are important to you, and if you’re having employees those all should be important to you. And that creativity may not be as important depending on what your role is in the company but production and performance and satisfaction, okay. Those things all suffer because it like nobody likes it. micromanagement drives people crazy. They don’t they don’t feel valued. They don’t feel important, as Rosemary said, and from, you know, the employer side of things, your idea of building a team and having people work for you and work with you is to help you achieve more right well, what a micro manager does typically is they basically make the team only as effective as that as the micro manager. So you may have five people on the team, but you can still only accomplish what that one person can accomplish because they hold back the entire team. On the flip side of that, you then you get the dissatisfaction with people’s workplaces, people don’t feel valued, they don’t feel their as Rosemary said. But in more than that, you’ll have people quit, they’ll stop caring about their job. And another impact area is company culture, which if you allow micromanagement, then culture suffers. And there’s all kinds of books on culture that we’re not really going to get into that kind of stuff. But I do want to talk about one aspect of it is, if you want to have a good company culture, where your team wants to be there, like our our philosophy of halls, a friend of ours named Craig Handly, he wrote a book called base is basically on how to train people, like hired to quit inspired to stay is the book, but you should read it, I tell it’s an amazing book. But basically, we train our team and give them all the stuff we can, that they’re equipped to do their job, or potentially leave and go do something even bigger than what they did with us. But there’s a reason people stay at the same time. Because we do provide an environment they want to be there. We did a company culture index not too long ago, that was completely random. And we scored a 98 out of 100 with 65 people on our current culture. And it’s, it’s because we’re these elements, there’s other pieces to but because these elements are not in place, if you’re if you build that and you create that for people, they’ll want to stay and they’ll do their best work. I know. So that’s just a little add on to what Rosemary was talking about. But let’s, before we go on to the next section, I wanted to ask you, where do you think the micromanagement style, why do you Why do people micromanage? Where does it come from?
Rosemary Kwoka 21:53
Yeah. And I think that it comes from first, a lot of passion, maybe too much passion, you know, I, I feel like, you know, you need to view people as always having positive intent. And being just everyone is, I just assume everyone’s a good person, right? And everyone wants to be successful. No one wants to be the bad guy, no one wants to be that person that is that bad leader, right. So I think that it comes from extreme passion and fear of not getting to that point. And that with that extreme passion there’s a lot of power, and where power and passion are two really great things to have, you can have way too much of it. And I think those are the basis of micromanagement is fear of losing your power, and then fear of, you know, not getting to your goal. And that is also mistrust. So, um, you know, I think people might have had experiences where they might maybe didn’t weren’t able to communicate, or, you know, you hear people who are like, Oh, I really don’t like group projects. I’m always the one who does everything, you know, and or, yes, yes, that does happen. But we got, like, a micromanager might have had that experience is like, Look, I just want to A so I’m gonna get it done. But that’s not a good quality. No one wants to be a part of that person that’s in that group. Either just like, Okay, fine. And then, like, if you’re a manager, and you’re like, this is my way or the highway, well, you’re only gonna get 20% of productivity out of your employees or your teammates, because that’s how much you’re giving them. That’s how much control you’re giving them. You only get the same back and yeah, so I would say passion overcaution over powerful and fear and mistrust would be the, you know, basis of people who micromanage because I do want to acknowledge that micromanager is, yeah, they, they want to get something done. They’re so excited about it, and they just they don’t want to go and they, they just, you know, it’s it’s my way or the highway and and we see that that doesn’t always work and that’s why people when you’re a micromanager that’s why you have employees that get, you know, frazzled and upset. And, you know, you get a lot of, I would say you get a lot of like pushback, and there’s a lot of frustration, in my experience with micro managers.
Tanner Larsson 24:44
Absolutely. So we’ve kind of talked about how micromanagement, I mean, it’s a it’s a process and in some cases, it can be utilized great, but it’s not really a style of leadership. Why don’t let’s just talk so much more about you and like, how do you make this work across Team USA, you know, You’re doing that, obviously, you’ve got a bunch of very type A personalities in that world, right? And then obviously, within BGS, you’ve got a mix of Type A personalities, which any one of them could be the leader, or whatever else or, or could lead or whatever. And you got to kind of, how do you how do you navigate that world? What’s the style of leadership you use to do that?
Rosemary Kwoka 25:21
Yeah, um, so I would call, you know, let’s see, I would call my style of leadership is like, wrapped. Um, I would, I would call myself a very macro, very big picture, leadership style. And, and how I would describe that, and how I’ve managed my teams both with USA, and from ours is, you know, similar to how you do it too Tanner is by establishing a clear intent and goal first, getting everyone on board. And that’s just the first step, because you have a team and you just say, hey, team, my, our goal for this today, and like, we’ve got a really big goal, of course, placing first and being the best USA team, you know, in the world, would be the best, you know, but we also have targets that we have to get there. So, hey, team, our goal is to have an average, um, you know, seven minute, 20 seconds 2K time. That’s our goal. Team, our goal is to accomplish, you know, three cases in in this next week. And, you know, that’s the goal. That’s the intent, that’s what we want to do. And then there’s an element of different personalities, like you said, there’s A type personalities, there’s the introverts, there’s the people who just are funky. They like to put their own little twist on things. And, and that’s where you, that’s where the personality of the leader, and the ability to shift into the different types of personalities. So identifying that not everyone is the same way that you are. And identifying that that introvert that might not speak up during the meetings actually has a lot to say. And so you have to set up the opportunity for that introvert, to be able to speak. So it might be, I’m going to talk about this. And then you maybe you’ll call on them and just say, hey, in a calm situation, what do you have to say about this. And so that’s, that’s where I have found success is by identifying that it’s not one size fits all, it’s about addressing the general picture, we all have this main objective. And the ways that we get there, we will all get there in some time, you know, the extrovert, a type personality is going to be like I’m the leader and I’m going to get there. And then you’ve got like, you know, someone else who’s like, well, I’m going to design this. And I’m going to flourish over here and make it look so good. I’m going to get to that point, well, that person, you’re going to give that person a different job than the A type personality than the introvert, right? Like, you just have to identify who’s right for each job, and then have have the ability to adjust and shift. And so if say, you know, the quiet person might blossom between the first part and and getting to the goal. Well, that person might be like, Hey, you know, I did all this analysis, and it’s so great. I kind of want to like, do the presentation. And you’re like, Whoa, I’ve never thought that you would want to do the creative part of that, you know, absolutely take it away. And you might see something so grand that that person produces. And so that is kind of the the background or foundation that I feel that a great leader and how I have been able to find success is by you know, having that as the foundation. Now we need to get to the point where I’d like okay, but this is all nice, but how do you get things done? And everyone’s got their own way. There’s got to be a point to where, you know, there’s deadlines, there’s, there’s all these things, you can’t just keep on accommodating, accommodating. And that’s where, you know, check in points. I’d like to call them check ins. It’s not saying did you get this done? It’s saying where are we at with this? And it’s up to that person. And you in the beginning to establish that trust where they can tell you oh my gosh, you know, I did this, I couldn’t do it or I went this direction I misunderstood. And the check ins for the leader to do is like that person that leader needs to be present and needs to almost be on top of all They’re people in the sense where they’re like, Alright, I understand that,
you know, Sarah is doing a great job, she’s gonna, she’s hitting this point, I am in this understanding that she knows what her goal is. Now, Paul over here, you know, he might have some bad habits that are happening right now. And he missed last week’s deadline, you know, or whatever. I’m going to talk to him. Hey, Paul, you know, what, what’s going on? How can I help you? How can I support you. And those are the ways that you need to that I feel are the best way to talk to a person is not you didn’t do this, what’s going on? It’s, hey, I’m here to support you, I want to be your resource, I’m going to shift and talk to you the way that you want to be spoken to, and the way that you feel the most comfortable, so we can identify the situation. And I just want to also point out that it’s not always the people or the people that you’re leading, that are the issue. Correct, It’s the leader. It’s the leader, and the leader needs to identify those things within themselves. And that will translate. So maybe if you’re in a position where you’re feeling like your team is not being successful, and you’re like, gosh, what’s going on, I you know, what, I feel like we’re meeting our deadlines or not, and like, everything is falling apart, that’s when you take a minute to reflect and figure out what’s going on within yourself. And sometimes, that absolutely solves everything, you’re like, Oh, I got back on track on my own things, I, you know, started checking in more, I’ve cleared out whatever is going on in my life that is preventing me from being a support system for my team. And now all of a sudden, we’re flourishing, and we’re doing a lot better. And maybe you didn’t have to, like, it was just you having a different mindset, and shifting them that.
Tanner Larsson 31:50
That was the other side of it is the a lot of times what you think is clear, is not clear to them. Right? just you know, it’s and that’s a it’s different for every person like you know, we’ve we’ve done a lot of work on this and in our team as well, right, we’ve got we’ve had Olivier who’s a really great, like, I don’t even I call him a mentalist. Basically, he’s the guy who can just interview you and like learn your entire psyche and break you down and give you this comparison chart so that we can then learn about ourselves, but then compare it to other people on the team and learn how to deal with each person like Rosemary and I are like polar opposites in the way we’re broken up. Like, she’s a futurist, and I’m very heavy on strategy. She’s super organized on like, down to the future, how it’s gonna play out. I’m a visualizer, and how it’s gonna play out. But we accomplish a lot of the same things, because we’re both very driven. But the way we’re driven is completely different. When I explain something to Rosemary, she is not going to be happy. If I’m saying, Okay, well, this is the first two steps I need you to work on that she’s gonna flip out. Because she needs to know the whole picture doesn’t have to know every single step along the way yet, but she needs the full vision of what’s the Why am I doing these two steps? What’s the end goal? How does that work together. And then there’s other people who like, Oh, don’t tell me everything like that just boggles my mind. So there’s different communication styles that need to happen within the mini team to communicate the exact same information. Like if someone can’t handle it all, and you give them in chunks. Also, if someone like Roseberry is a futurist she needs to know like, what the outcome is going to be and how she can prepare for it and document back out into where she needs to start. Someone else just needs to be told, hey, just do this. And then I’ll take the next thing to do. So and then the other side of it is how clearly, you know what it is you want to achieve. If you’re unclear on the like, here’s the big goal, but what we need to do to hit to hit that goal or really or the goal is fuzzy, you’re there’s no way you’re going to be able to get your team on board, or measure their performance, if that’s another piece that where issues come into play as if there’s not clear KPIs or at least milestones of like, How do I know I’m doing a good job? Right. And if you can’t communicate that, you this, this whole thing that Rosemary has been talking about just gets even worse. So more often than not the leaders, the problem is kind of stinks. And, you know, also have you trained or equipped your team in that regard. To be able to do the task you’re asking them to do. Yeah,
Rosemary Kwoka 34:28
exactly. And, and there are ways and tools that you use that, you know, to help keep track of all of that progress. And you know, we use Trello and you know, to see where we’re at and to review what people have done in the past. And you know, slack is a beautiful, beautiful app, I really I think that’s such a great way to be like just to be independent, but working together and all of that. So, um, yeah, I would say that, you know, I’m also a big fan of Google Docs and having a collaborative way of working. But just seeing that, literally seeing the different tasks that the different points that we need to accomplish in order to get this target target number one, and that’s an that’s a good tool to use. So everyone’s clear, and to some degree, some people might need more clarification than the other. But, you know, it’s known that we, you know, by week three, we need to have six cases done, and in cases is ambiguous, I don’t, whatever it is that you need to get done. Week Three, that that needs to get done. And everyone sees that, what needs to get done, and whatever happens within that, it’s up to you, as the leader to make sure those, you’re the people that you’re leading, know what their role is, and they’re so excited about it. And maybe one person might have a job that they’re like, Oh, fine, I’ll do it. Like, it’s not my favorite. But those are, you know, sometimes you have, there’s jobs that just aren’t your favorite and so, you know, you just support that person in any way that you can. So the next time that there’s a role, you just find something that you know, that they’ll flourish in. Yeah, I can’t emphasize enough is just by always, always, always shifting within yourself. And, and understanding that there is a path, but but whatever that looks like, you know, that path might be a forest path, and it’ll turn into a beach, you know, I’m just trying to say that there’s just so many different looks to how you get there.
Tanner Larsson 36:44
And being okay with each team member using their own methodology with within what’s allowed for your company, of course, to get there, everybody’s going to do things a little bit differently. But the end result is what’s important. As long as you know, quality is maintained, any kind of legality is maintained. Yeah, the path doesn’t matter, as long as the outcome is achieved, you know, and the allowing people the autonomy to do it their way, is how you get peak performance out of your team.
Rosemary Kwoka 37:14
Yeah, and, and asking questions. So if you are someone who wants to be involved, and you want to know what, say, you’re an introvert, and you want to know how this extreme extrovert creative, you know, person is how they’re gonna like I don’t get it? How is this going to help us? You know, maybe we should work that a little nicer and more direct, but but you can, you know, be show that you’re engaged, and you want to know how they’re going to do it. You You want to learn? And and that’s, you know, that’s a part of the whole? Yeah, just that whole enrollment of like, trying to understand that person. So you’re there for them. And you, you, you’re showing that like, man, I would probably wouldn’t do it this way. But I’m curious how you do it. And this is very cool. And then you get that understanding as to how that creative person that maybe you’re not, you know, familiar with, but you get it, and you gonna
Tanner Larsson 38:09
get there. Yeah, a lot of times that that super quiet introvert is like the mad scientist behind the screen, you know? Seems like Victor, they’re just some sometimes they’re just wicked smart. You’re like, Oh, my gosh, how come I have not been leveraging your talent? More before? Eric is a perfect example of that. Absolutely quiet. So Eric, it’s crazy, because the dude was a marine. Right, which you don’t exactly expect to see like quiet, you know, self reserved, shy kind of guys as Marines, but he was a marine. And he’s also he’s very quiet. He’s very dry. He’s to the point, he only says basically the bare minimum of what he has to say, to to get his point across. But the dude is wicked smart. And he’s probably the most highly educated RO on our team from just like a pure knowledge standpoint. And when you engage him, and you draw him out, you’re like, hey, Eric, what about this, and he just goes off, and you’re like, Oh, my gosh, like, that’s, that is amazing. And but, you know, if you don’t ask him, you’re not gonna get it. Right? Because he’s not he’s not. I mean, he volunteers and now because he’s comfortable and team, but just from someone like everybody’s first starts, he may have the knowledge, but if he doesn’t get the request given to him, he’s just gonna do his work, but maybe not add to the rest of it. And that’s one of the things that from a leadership perspective, we’ve been like, man, we gotta we got to make sure like draw Eric out more make him more comfortable so that he is willing and now he’s writing amazing blog for the article, he actually developed a product page course. He’s on video now. Does podcast like it just sharing his wisdom with the world now and it’s awesome. But if we hadn’t nurtured that, he would just be this amazing mad scientist behind the scenes that you never know is the genius that he is.
Rosemary Kwoka 39:57
Yeah. And I love you I like to visualize things. And something that I kind of view is that, you know, you view each person as this light, this just amazing light. And we as a team need to shine in one direction, the leader is going to turn that person in the direction where their light shines the brightest. And, and that’s, that’s what we, you know, that’s what BGS done for Eric is that, you know, we’ve got this just big brain and just amazing person and giving them an opportunity to be the bright person and contribute the most and shine the most. You know, that’s, that’s what a leader does? And is it the exact opposite of what a micromanager does, they only point them in one direction. So they’re like maybe regular, brighter, dammed or whatever, it’s, but we’re not, you know, you’re not allowing them to turn to where it, it can be the most. And yeah, so that’s, that’s what’s so great about being an open shifting.
Tanner Larsson 41:15
honorable leader. Yup, and you want to get the get the ideas from from everybody, you know, never know where that good idea that’s gonna make make the job easier come from? Okay, so, you know, the last main question I really want to get into is there’s definitely in projects and managing teams, there are things like that are very high detail oriented, or you know, are high impact. And there are, you know, low detail, low target low impact type of tasks, that are less detail oriented versus the higher detail oriented. And you’ve got to be able to work with your team on both of those. What’s your experience in doing that, and helping them work through the varying types of high detail and low detail tasks? Yep.
Rosemary Kwoka 41:53
So first, you would want to identify which person on your team works better with small details, and which person flourishes with maybe in an ambiguous detail. So I, that’s where I typically start is by identifying who’s best at what and I mean, again, like that goes for any any task, but when we’re looking at high detailed tasks. Yeah, you want to get that analyzer in there, you know, you want to get that person who loves the nitty gritty of everything. And, for me, you know, I’m this kind of whole picture open person, where the little itty bitty details can actually paralyze me sometimes, because I’m like, Well, I don’t know what to do, there’s so much. So you know, you find those people who are comfortable in that. And then, because analyzers are so great, they analyze and analyze and analyze, and they can analyze for five years. So you got to get on those people, on the people who love analysis, and numbers and all of that, and we get the deadlines or goals or, or steps on what we need. So hey, this is what needs to get done. This is the details that we want. You know, this is our goal, and this is our deadline. So that’s where you need to be clear on your intent and have direct and clear understanding of when things need to be need to get done. And as a leader, for someone for high detailed tasks, you also need to be very available. So if you know we have high details, and we have a day to get this done, that leader should be there as as an open source of like, Hey, I’m here to support you. This is where we’re at, Hey, how’s it going? Well, you know, what’s going on with this? You’re not saying did you get this done? Did you get that done, because even an analyzer might have different steps as to how they’re going to accomplish that high detailed project, high detailed project. So it’s all about you as leader to be present. And to be aware of the situation and prioritizing, you know, what’s going on a more low detailed project, that’s where, you know, you’re still going to check in, but you’re going to allow that freedom and that trust for that person to accomplish those those those steps or, you know, whatever needs to get done in order to get to that target. So it requires a lot more from the leader, to be present and to trust, again, trust those people that they’re going to get to it. So just being involved but not involved in the sense where they’re like, you get this wrong, like it’s done and over with. You want to make that person feel strong and positive and happy and empowered doing the task at hand, right? Yeah, exactly. That’s the right word empowered. You want to empower that person that you trust them. And you know, like you tell them I I know that you can do this, and we’re gonna get to it and whatever help that you need, I’m here 30. You know, maybe if it’s a quick task, you know, and it needs to get done quickly, maybe every 30 minutes, you just give them a little nudge of like, Hey, how’s it going, I’m here, we’re, you know, whatever that person you feel that person needs. The thing about anything I feel, I feel is that you’ve got that chest feeling, you know, that you just, you have that connection with that person. And if you feel that there’s high 10th, like they’re stressed out and whatever, then we need to break it down more, we need to figure out what’s the next step? Crawl, walk, run, you know. And so if it’s a high detailed task, and you’ve got someone there, just like there’s so many details, Oh, my gosh, what’s going on? I know, I can do it. But man, this is a lot. Okay, what’s the first step? What do we just need to see in front of us? So that’s how I handle high detailed tasks or high detailed? Yeah, high, high detailed projects. And then yeah, low detail projects is those that for me, I love low detail projects, because that, you know, I might make my creative my creativity goes wild.
Tanner Larsson 46:19
Yep. Now, so two things I wanted to touch on that you talked about there. One thing we talked about, like making them feel empowered, but the other side of that, and this was one of the hardest things for me to deal with, when I first started building my team years ago, was, you have to be okay with them making a mistake. And they have to know that you’re okay with them making a mistake, and that mistakes will happen and that you’re not going to jump down their neck. You know, kill them, fire them, whatever mistakes are going to happen. And sometimes they’re going to be costly. We have we’ve had one or two in our case where we’ve had one that cost us a $60,000 a month client.
Rosemary Kwoka 46:58
Tanner Larsson 46:59
So but did we we didn’t know he didn’t it was like, you’re either if we fire them for a mistake. Now, if it’s if it’s negligent, like real negligence or something bad, then obviously have to do that. But if it’s in the process of becoming better at your job, and you’re learning or whatever, and you cause something, like a lot of money to the to the company, and obviously we’re like, Okay, well, what do we do? Well, if we fire that person, then that’s just, that’s a big, big expense. But we don’t we say, hey, it’s a retraining thing, like, Hey, here’s what we didn’t do, right? Here’s something we’re the training was deffective, and we can support them better. Now, it becomes a learning experience, that person becomes that much more valuable to the company. Yes, it was an expensive mistake. But, you know, they’re still learning, and it’s a way to improve it. And now, if it happens over and over again, well, then, obviously, then you got to talk about it. And then it’s gonna have a different outcome, but people are going to make mistakes. Now, my gut reaction, yeah, I didn’t want to be nice about it, I wanted to be like, dude, you’re gone. But that wasn’t, that’s, that was my internal reaction, because that’s how our knee jerk like, you hurt my baby. Now, I gotta, I gotta protect it. But if you let that out, your team is not going to function. Right, they’re going to be so terrified of making a mistake, that they’re not going to either they’re going to quit because they don’t like the tension, or they’re going to be so terrible. make mistake, they get nowhere, right.
Rosemary Kwoka 48:20
And the effect of allowing people to make mistakes and adjusting to that recommit your employee and your teammates to be devoted, positive, excited members of your team. Like that boosts morale so much, you know, that’s what gives them that. To say, like, Oh, I want to tackle this, I want to try this. I’m gonna do whatever I can. Because like, I love this company. And I love this team. And I want to do, I’m going to do whatever it takes to make this flourish. You know, and right as if you have that you look over your shoulder kind of feeling, man, like, you’re it does, it does drain morale, and you’re only gonna get maybe 50%. Because 65% means they might be risking something. They’re not sure if they should say something. Yeah, yeah. So that yeah, that’s such a beautiful thing to say, because it’s so true. And and all it takes is just you to step back and see that bigger picture. Micro managers have a hard time seeing that. And when you are a macro, and you see, you know, the beauty of what’s going on, that person has so much knowledge and just made a mistake. And it’s just nice to see people as always having positive intent. Always. You know, I tried and then you know, of course, there’s negligence. There’s people who, you know, just aren’t just you’re just like, why aren’t you getting this maybe you just misaligned You know, sometimes That happens and the best thing you can do
Tanner Larsson 50:01
at that point is let him go.
Rosemary Kwoka 50:02
Yeah, exactly. And there’s no hard feelings just like, you know, we’re just not aligned together. And, um, you know, we’ve, we’ve, we’re gonna have to just move move along both of us. And, and that’s, you know, of course, a loss for both sides. Because, you know, we’ll have to start retraining a new person, rebuilding all of that, and that person has to rebuild too so it’s, you know, it’s never a good feeling to have to do that. But it is, at times a call that needs to be made.
Tanner Larsson 50:32
True. Yeah, that’s, that’s great, though. 100%. Okay, so one of the things that you talked about that I wanted to touch on as like a little tip for people that is that that analyzer, I want to talk about the magic, I obviously saw Rosemary get all excited her get excited about all analyzers are amazing. And they are when you know how to leverage them. If you have so if you are that person, you are, you are that like a superpower in a team if you know how to how to leverage yourself correctly. So I’ll give you an example. In BGS, we have a team member named Alex and you guys have all seen him he spoke on stage at BGS lives. He’s he’s on the podcast, he’s trained in our groups. He’s, he’s phenomenal. Alex is now my right hand guy like he and I work together daily on a team. Alex is an analyzer. The dude is just like, he loves checklists. He loves detail. He loves the nitty gritty, and he loves learning about why those things need to work and putting it all together into this amazing plan. Executing like, the most exciting thing in the world to him is just checking stuff off his checklist that he’s getting done. And he’s super high in integrity, and it’s just, it’s this powerhouse of a guy. And it’s great for client work and whatever. But when you take that person in that role, in this case, Alex, and you pair him with someone like me, who’s got tons of ideas can execute, but also like, has so many other things moving that it’s not going to get done, or, you know, he’s like, I gotta do this, I gotta do this, I got to do this. And there’s too many things going on. You pair that analyzer with someone like me, or someone like Rosemary, who like who prefers the low detail, and she could pass on the high detail to someone like Alex, you create rocket fuel, and there’s actually a book called rocket fuel that talks exactly about that, that dynamic. And the analogy that I’ll give you this, this is actually the analogy that Alex came up with, was, like, if we look at the like, an airplane, okay, in the front, in the in the cockpit of the airplane, there’s there’s the pilot and the copilot. Okay, I’m the pilot. By myself. I jump in the cockpit. I jump in the seat, buckle up sometimes. And then I take off. Do we have fuel? Do we know where I’m going? Do what I don’t care ready, fire aim. I’m just going to get in the air and I’ll figure it out as I get there. Then there’s Alex the copilot. If Alex goes in the cockpit by himself, he sits down, he buckles his seat, he fixes his shirt pulls out checklist one goes through it. And he goes through the checklist again. And then he gets another checklist and goes through that. Alex never takes off. Because he’s continuously going through the checklist. However, you put both of us in the cockpit together, the plane gets off the ground safely gets to the destination fast, it’s efficient, it’s everything and then go and it’s accomplished. That is the power of pairing an analyzer with someone who has the bigger picture, bigger vision or the or the desire to really run and move fast. And it’s a great analogy, because it’s so true. The analyzer very seldom gets things done on their own. But when paired with someone who can pull them out of that, and analyzing mode, it just creates this rocket fuel symbiotic relationship where massive, massive things can get accomplished.
Rosemary Kwoka 53:45
Yeah, yep, that’s so awesome. So true. So so true. I think we see a lot of analyzers in e commerce. Absolutely, you know, it’s just a lot of a lot. There, I think I’ve encountered more analyzers than I mean, if you follow this personality approach of analyzer controller promoter, and supporter, those would be the four, um, you know, if you follow that as a personality guide, in my experience, in e commerce, we see a lot of analyzers. And that’s great because there’s so many details that need to be seen on an e commerce site, and coding, and, you know, marketing and, and all of that. So, so it always good to have promoters, all those party people, and, and controllers and all of that, like, you know, that’s the beauty of humans is the opportunity to see all of those traits and people but I love my analyzers. And it’s so true. I need them to move forward safely. I’m just like, breaking through walls, not understanding beams.
Tanner Larsson 54:57
Totally. Yeah. It’s crazy. And it’s amazing. Like, you think you’re a high performer and you are like we are, we are high performers. But when you compare yourself with somebody who is complimentary to your skill set, it’s just amazing what can happen. And that’s how you should figure out your teams, you should find out in your teams who those four types are, and pair them up to work together in different areas. And your your leaders and your key, like senior people should all have someone in a supporting role that complements who they are, if they’re an analyzer, they need someone who’s not an analyzer to support them and help them do it. If they aren’t analyzer, they need someone who’s you know, or not, if they’re a supporter, then they need someone who is that goal getter, you know, just they want to be behind the scenes, but just help them moving, you got to find those people and, and line them up with that kind of person so that they can support the person who’s going to just, you know, go crazy. Zack is a supporter. Yeah, Zack starts COO, Chief, Chief Operating Officer, and he’s, he’s, he could not he could be a CEO, he could be anything he wants, but he loves that supporting role of developing the systems, and then just, you know, basically doing this for everybody to make sure their projects move forward. effectively.
Rosemary Kwoka 56:12
Yeah, yeah, and give your give your leaders the opportunity to do that, you know, if you overload your leader, with so many tasks, that they might get distracted from the personalities and, and the human flow of, of working. And being a part of a team, you know, you’re taking away from the potential of a really big experience, if that person is tasked, and they’re not able to move that task to someone else. And they’re maybe just having a lot of pressure, you know, you’re not giving that leader an opportunity to dig in deep with their, with their team and to see what’s going on. And because a leader is, is going to be a part of all departments, they’re going to be a part of every project. And that’s a lot. And that leader should be there, they’re going to help, you know, code, they’re going to help with the coding team, whatever they need, they’re going to help them get that they’re going to help help with the marketing team, they’re going to help with this there, they have their hands in so many different directions that you need to make sure that your leader is also feeling supported by by you or you know, by the owner or the coach, you know, you want to make sure your captain is is feeling has the ability to do all those things for their team because it’s it’s the team that makes the project happen. And it’s the leader that you know, guides everyone together and it’s the coach who is the last you know, engine that pushes everything forward. But it’s the wheels in front that start
Tanner Larsson 57:48
Yeah, that was great. Guys, we covered a lot today This was awesome. Rosemary, thank you so much for you know just jammin with me and talking about this. This is you know, obviously not our traditional ecom topic, but super valuable and super important as you build a team in e commerce stores need a team. It’s not a solo game. So this was great. I know, we’re gonna have you back on future episodes, we’ll be talking about this stuff in more detail, different areas of it and everything, as well as some ecom stuff because although she didn’t mention it, guys, she’s actually a wizard at ecom herself an optimization process it makes sure we get to pick her brain on that stuff in future episodes. Yeah, and guys right now. What you need to do right now is, subscribe. If you haven’t subscribed, you wouldn’t listen to Rosemary, you got to subscribe to the podcast. So click the button below to subscribe or if you’re on YouTube, subscribe on YouTube. And then if you need to show notes or you want to, you know, find stitcher or different links or whatever, just go to buildgrowscale.com forward slash podcast. And we’ll get you links to everything. And then if you liked the episode, if you liked what Rosemary had to say, leave a review. Tell us what you thought. Give us ideas for future episodes and just just interact with us. We’d love that. All right. So with that, guys, thank you very much and we will see you on the next episode.
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